Senecio adn Tide II

[Mirach]

"Then we will both come after we decide on the costume, is that alright?" Senecio asked and took a scone to eat with his tea.

[VisAnastasis]

"It's... perfect, "Being agreed shyly, and he could not help himself but smile as he saw Senecio eating - by the movement of his eyes and the attentive direction of his gaze it was quite clear he was happy to see the actor enjoying something he gave him, and that he was making mental notes to remember what cookies he seemed to eat the most for future reference.

[Mirach]

"For the record," Senecio said, "I like the scones and these cookies, don't care much for these, these and these, and haven't yet tasted the rest before, so the verdict on that is still pending."

[VisAnastasis]

Janus was nodding readily, clearly appreciating the clear straightforward given information, his feelings sparkling up, as he seemed pleased with actor's choice of words. He took out the pen and a black thin notebook and wrote down the names of cookies Senecio picked out diligently in it. He also checked and crossed out a few things in it too.
" Let's see... I have coaxed information of preferred snacks... According to Alpha's suggestions, last vital ingredient I am missing for a perfect tea party is... Spilling the tea." He wiggled his ears thoughtfully, before his expression brightened up. " Hmm.. will this interesting fun fact quality? Do you know why Hans, even though he is a Spirit King, does not have any of fun gadgets I made for you? Well, partly it is because he always simply skips through layers when in trouble, and the rest of the time he is never five minutes away from Tide... But biggest reason is that he and Alpha drove each other in corner with their flirting," as he phrased it like that, Hans, who was drinking his tea, chocked up, trying hard to swallow it through surge of laughing - but thar only encouraged Janus more and made him snort bemusedly through his nose as well." Yeah... Those two rascals are flirting all the time, and Alpha always flirts in a way where he teases that he will agree to give his blood for gadgets once they begin dating... So they literally locked themselves out of making deals for huge number of things, because they flirted it into the future. I don't partake in bets but I hear most Beings that are currently in and around the city are betting those days on when the dating will actually start. It is pretty active conversation topic, Rain assured me..."
" Can you count that as spilling tea, when it's a public secret? Almost everyone knows that, and I would have told Senecio if he asked," Hans was still suppressing both laugh and embarrassment as he was clearing his deeply red face with a folded rose napkin, a gesture which brought a smile to Janus's face even though he looked pretty confused.
" Are you sure it doesn't count? Alpha was stingy with definition of the phrase, as if it is something I should innately understand, and I was quite certain I did. I guess I should have pressed him for more practical examples..."

[Mirach]

"No, it definitely counts," Senecio smirked. "Maybe I could have ask,  but I didn’t know what to ask about."

[VisAnastasis]

" I am glad it counts, because I am not sure what else I would have spilled if not," Janus's expression was rather enthusiastic and relieved as he inquired with natural bubbly curiousity." So, how do people normally judge when there is enough tea? Is it enough that I spilled it, or is everyone present at the table required to spill a bit?"
 
" Well, I wouldn't call it a requirement, but it is always fun to add more to the pile. Since you started it, I guess... I can volunteer a bit of tea myself, too," Hans responded, sipping his drink. His face was still deeply red, but it seemed that Janus's statement gave him a needed little push to be able to say words that were very big to him in a more casual way." I guess... Yes, I can aay it like that. If you are planning to bet on when Alpha and I would get together... Your handsome local inside informant wants to tell you that... you should not bet on it taking too long if you want to win that bet. My heart is in a lot of mess, and I have no idea how to properly do it," he grinned as if he were caught in mischief." But last days, it's.. um.. becoming increasingly difficult to keep putting the matter aside. I have just not figured out how to address it with proper weight yet... "  

[Mirach]

"Oooh, that’s great!" Senecio smiled excitedly. "You can find the best words for a play, so you will figure it out perfectly, I believe in you. The ball might be a great opportunity for it. Or the private play about him fir the price of a ham sandwich that I promised to Alpha as a deal for the clothes. If you want, I can incorporate something into it that will allow you to breach the topic later."

[VisAnastasis]

" That's... actually a rather tempting idea. He should not be expecting it if it is framed as a little fun event... perhaps only like that, he would not see it coming. And... while Ball would be pretty fun, it does not feel grand enough for a proposal... he allowed you to invite any of your friends for that private play, so... wouldn't that be a much nicer, memorable thing to remember, a couple of us catching him by surprise?" Hans whispered, strangely timidly for himself, wiggling fingers around his teacup - it seemed that he was much more nervous about this than he leads on. Still, it seemed easier to him to talk under the pretence of sharing gossip. " You know, according to inside information that I am almost certain is reliable... I think Alpha would be happy in whatever way I would ask. But that's precisely the problem. It is... a play that has been building up for hundreds of years, and... What's the point of a great play if it doesn't have a truly memorable final act? I want it to be a thing he reminisces of with fondness... " he contemplated quietly. " The timing feels right. And... To be honest, I am in a bit of a time crunch, because I kept delaying the decision, wondering if I was really alright with it, or just swayed by the atmosphere. I only fully decided today, but it didn't feel right to ask him while we were full of dust and dirt from renovating the stage, so... I, naturally, delayed the matter yet again, " he smiled embarrassedly, like the guilty person he was. "  Alpha is these days staying in the mansion with an excuse that he's worried for Senecio's health, but I'm worried when he will choose to leave... It would not surprise me if he left after the Ball. Naturally, he would want to stay and would only go because he wouldn't want to pressure me too much with his presence... He's always really great like that, in giving me the space I needed, but... ironically, this is one time I don't want him to give me space. If I don't ask him out by the time he leaves, it may be a week or two until I find a solid excuse to naturally see him again, and... I would really miss him too much at this point if we anew only got to see each other once or twice a month. I... am safe now. I am having fun doing things again, and a lot of good things are happening. I don't have to clash with Bull priests every waking moment and... and Tarmagil, that last bastard that tormented me, is finally dead, too, " he explained quietly as if confiding something very heavy. " I... am feeling pretty good right now. I am finally well enough to the point when I am not consumed with hate and fear and am able to feel such peaceful things like missing someone again... I really do not want to stubbornly put myself in a spot where I'll keep thinking about him and trying to find excludes to see him. I do not think being lovesick and pretending that I am unfazed suits me. Alpha... " he smiled faintly at the thought. " That loveable bastard earned way too many Hans points recently, that I could no longer want things to stay the same even if I tried... "

[Mirach]

"I'm all in for making a performance that would somehow lead up to your confession, if you decide it's the best moment for it," Senecio said eagerly. "The more material about you two you give me, the better I can make it."

[VisAnastasis]

"Well, I have been making this little rose most carefully and slowly, folding it petal by petal, for centuries... If I kept making it and constantly trying to perfect it, it would take at least a century longer, and... who knows? Perhaps at that point, instead of perfect, when I look closer, it may be overfolded, with overcrowded petals suffocating it. After our last few days of hanging out as a group... Looking closely at it, the folded rose has actually gotten rather gorgeous by now without me realizing it. I want it now, as it is, "the creature explained its desires with a little more bubbly eager smile while gazing at the pretty roses on the table, and then, he turned to the actor mischievously while sipping his tea. "Hmm, come to think of it, you do not really know too much about Alpha, other than he is a Star that likes to make clothes rather than fight, and that he and I have a thing, right? "he bid, a little entertaining. " Well, he is a person that gave spilling tea as a tip for the perfect tea party to Janus, so he can't complain if we spend it spilling the tea about him... Would you like some cool intel now, or later? Is there anything you are particularly curious about? And whether now or late, how would it be more fun to learn? Should I answer your questions about him, or do you want me to speak chronologically, from his arrival to now? Though I have some gaps in knowledge here and there, along with Tide and Solstice, I am probably the person that knows the most about him... "

[Mirach]

"A tea party with gossip, great!" Senecio grinned. "Let’s start with a short chronology, and then I'll ask, okay?"

[VisAnastasis]

" Deal, " Hans leaned back more comfortably and sipped his tea with a more relaxed expression. It seemed he savoured the moment, and, even though the content was not always light, he clearly enjoyed speaking about this. " Alpha, is a star cluster, to begin with. He existed for a very long time, but for all that time, he existed alone, as, unlike around Sun, there was no life around his stars. It took him a long time to gain somewhat of consciousness. And even when he did, the only feeling he got to know was loneliness. But then... everything changed for him when the fight between Grendel and Death happened, "Spirit explained quietly. " It was a battle of cosmic proportions, you see. Even though our world wasn't destroyed, and it happened on a relatively small patch of it, it was a battle that shook the fabric of the whole universe and almost tore it. A galactic battle between the two strongest personifications managed to draw the attention even of the distant star... And with it, it realized that there was a world out there that was brimming with other existences. He first observed for a while, trying to figure out how interactions worked, but when he could no longer contain his longing, he figured out how to separate part of himself and come to the earth, but... his first appearance was far from successful. He judged only humans and Beings were on high enough intellect level where they could offer him companionship, but... his attempt at humanoid form would be similar if you tried to make a vaguely human shape out of slimey watery mud. It was very crude, and monstrous. So, needless to say, when he first tried to interact with humans... he was killed on sight repeatedly, countless times. And, as a war between Demons was still not that far into it... he was killed by Spirits in the Spirit realm on sight too, as he was a Demon. He was in a really... bad position, as, being the only existence he ever knew for so long, he knew the value of life and would rather be killed than choose to defend himself and end life by accident. But, so, he ended up killed often, and even if at one point he ended up in the Demon king's army, he was not safe there, either, because they recognized him as a Star, and wanted to force him to fight, and when he did not understand and would refuse, they killed him too, "Hans sighed, sounding rather sympathetic, as he added. "Now that I set the basic stage, I guess the summary should be easy... After many deaths, he was rather discouraged... But that's when he finally got to us, me and Tide. Tide, being the loveable eldrich horror as he is, was not scared of immense power or the frightening demeanour of a Star, and I, whose regeneration power was ridiculous, to begin with, had nothing to be afraid of either. It was a time a while before Tide became a king, but he already had a soft spot for collecting unusual and lonely things... so we sort of went with the flow and brought him with us. Tide taught him a lot about taking on forms and expressing emotions, and I taught him a lot of social cues and Spirit language, as he was vaguely aware of the existence of language, but was not able to figure out how to speak on his own. Still, as he began to feel more intense things and was too excited to interact with our critters of the sea that no longer ran from him, his powers grew unstable, and I had to stay with him all the time to keep him steady with my Singing, but it was not feasible to keep things up forever. For him to learn to control himself we needed a Star to teach him... And we only knew Solstice. Solstice, you see, while publicly fiercely on the side of the Spirit realm, was a silent supported and double agent for the refugees of war, helping us in secret whenever he could. It was dangerous at the time and took a little heist, but we managed to smuggle Alpha to Solstice, and Solstice used his own power to mask Alpha's essence since they were both Stars and managed to take him in as a young visiting Star at his court, without anyone knowing he is a Demon... It was a risky move, but the only way he could be taught, and he stayed by Solstice's side for a long time, and we would only see each other rarely when I or Tide would need to sneak in to ask Slstice for help on various things. After a while, when Tide was already king, he was stable enough and knew enough of the world to be able to come back and forth between us and Solstice, and found a lot of joy in interacting with people of the sea... He tried to learn smithing from Solstice, but his heart just was not in it, but surprisingly, on Sun court, he grew a taste for fashion, since the fashion of Sun Spirits was always rather lavish, and he began making his first clothes. He enjoyed that, and would often make clothes for free for people of our kingdom, and he came to look a lot more refined, closer to how you know him today. He was more cheerful and content, but since there are not even a handful of Spirits compared to humans, and there were not really open parties between us, he was only half happy for a long time, as, even if he would at that point interact with higher kings sometimes while taking advantage of his powers and favour, they did not want to risk their authority by openly showing him before people, or, if I would sometimes take him on an undercover mission in the human realm, we both had to be disguised, so he was still in a stalemate, interacting with humans a bit more, but not enough to call it having real companionship. It just was not something I could solve overnight, so unfortunately, the poor thing had to be patient for quite many centuries. When... Uhm... After... You know, all the thing with me being captured and freed, as we settled down at this city, and we began building our manor and living here a lot, as I got wealthy and became first Being a citizen of the Empire... I began my human integration initiative. The first Beings to get citizenship after me were Alpha and Eros. Alpha was very excited, being able to open his first tailor shop, participate in human social life, and live a more accepted life among humans, who were already much more used to seeing Beings than before, thanks to us, "Hans was smiling a little wistfully at the thought, as he added quietly, sipping his tea. "For all its worth, he has so many opportunities for new and fresh interactions that were impossible before this point. Being culture is fine to him, but there are just not enough Beings interacting in one place to satisfy him, and there is never enough going on for him to not be bored. In the human world, there is always something new each day that he can take part in, so he is the most content version of himself as he is now, I think... "

[Mirach]

"Fascinating," Senecio nodded, sipping the tea slowly. "So, I have one question because I don't know how being a star works. What we can see of Alpha here is a physical body he made for himself that he's projecting his consciousness into? Is it his whole consciousness or just a part of it? Is he at the same time talking to peple here and sewing clothes, and being lonely somewhere far away? I can't really imagine the way he exists and feels things..."

[VisAnastasis]

" Stars by nature are complex things, so... both Solstice and Alpha, when choosing to exist with others, you can see as limiting themselves to life within a vessel in order to have full immersive living experience... Hmm... in a way, similar to how higher Personifications like Death and Eros are. In a way, their core exists somewhere else, but their main source of interaction and where most of the feelings are made is through the vessel, so even if the centre of their power is elsewhere, how those people feel mostly depends on how the vessel feels. Consciousness is within the vessel, although if they die or concentrate harder they can return their full attention back to their core, although they prefer not to as it is distracting. So, in a way it is not wrong to call Solstice and Alpha a smaller Personification - Personifications of their respective stars, " Hans explained brightly, enjoying talking about Alpha. " Stars can choose how much they limit themselves pretty well, and Solstice, for example, is most comfortable limiting himself to a fully human-like vessel, with little to no difference on the outside to how a Spirit like me would be, existing within the same time frame. But you have seen that Alpha often takes certain liberties with space and time, right? That's so because he feels more free living that way, besides, altering his own time enables him to make clothes quickly, even more so, enchanted clothes - something like that would take a long time normally, but he's able to do things like that in a few hours by allowing himself to exist more freely and slow down his own time. The thing is that he, as immortal, can only slow the time of immortals, otherwise, well, you know... Anyone inside the time bubble whose time he slows, unable to escape it, would die of hunger and turn to dust immediately. So, it is a sort of built-in capacity for evil, but it is not well known since neither Alpha nor Solstice uses it often. "
" It, it sounds a little scary, but Alpha is not the type of person that would casually do such a thing, so there's nothing to worry about, and as far as I know, Solstice only uses it when he is smithing, too. I have used it along with Solstice, before the war, it is technically not a lethal thing when used on Beings unless you are trapped in a time bubble all alone, so it is only dangerous for critters that have no immortality... Solstice also basically used it as a cheat to enable us to do more things in a shorter time, when we were learning and collaborating together on secret projects, " it was Janus who shyly tied in, seeing the worry on Erdel's face. " It... really could be better said that that rascal would always be on a different time scale than us, and is normally limiting himself to our time scale, and only releases his constraints a bit when he sews - and creates time bubble around himself, where time passes extremely slowly. So, if he looks rather bubbly whenever he sees you, it could be that he is happy as he is truly cheerful by nature... But it could also be that he has not, in his subjective measure, seen you for a while and is happy to reunite. As far as I know, he has made quite a few enchanted clothes these days that would require him quite a lot of love and time to pour into them, so, while by your subjective time, you may feel like you have known him for a week or two, he may feel like he knows you for a year or two, or perhaps longer, depending on how much he fiddled with his own time... It works in the same principle as that mister Sil Simbel's dreams, distorting the normal time passage. If you dream with Sil Simbel, you will feel like you know him much longer than you do in real life, because time in dreams passes much slower than in reality. It is the same principle Stars work with, unless they constrain themselves fully in physical vessels. "

[Mirach]

"Okay... and when did you two started falling for each other? Was it mutual or was one of you first?"

[VisAnastasis]

" Oh, well... You see... My love life... is a bit complicated, " Hans explained quietly, looking a little down. " You see... I had a strong relationship with Time Lord, and was deeply in love... but just one day before the start of Being war, Time Lord broke up with me. And if it was a definitive breakup with no contact or hope, I'd have gotten over it after a while, but... Whenever our need was great or we were in too much danger, Time Lord would, even if not appear, give us hints or minimal help, or intel on where we could find Beings in need that we would feel regretful not knowing of sooner... He helped as much as he could, so naturally... I could not help having hope, right? I... had a strong impression that he only broke up with me because the war was going to start and that one day, if the situation changes, we would get together again. I believed... that I just had to wait long enough, to prove the depth of my love,  " he smiled more frailly, looking down at his tea as if he felt ashamed for his assumptions. " So, for most of the time I knew Alpha, there was an unspoken knowledge that I was taken and that I was waiting for someone. So, even though with time, there was a bit of spark here and there, and we slept together when we would feel like it, or went on non-dates that sometimes often resembled dates... There was always a tacit agreement that it was a friendship-with-benefits thing. I had a soft spot for him because he was strong but so sweet and gentle-natured, and he had a moderate crush on me because I was always protective of him and he liked my personality, but we tacitly agreed not to act on it and remain good friends, but... A lot has changed for me when... emperor imprisoned me, " he did not look up to Senecio, but instead of being pained, the critter's voice sounded a little hollow as he explained. " You see... Since Time Lord always helped in times of need, I hoped... I hoped he may help that time, too... but he never did. And Time Lord only moves when he wants to nudge the world into timelines he thinks are best so... you understand, don't you? He did not help me because... he judged helping me would not lead to the best timeline he had in mind. The timeline in which I did not get hurt was not the best timeline in his heart... And that was a breaking point for me. A point when... I could no longer wait for him, " Hans whispered somberly, adding apologetically. " It is easier to decide something than to go through with it, though, heh... It took me a long time to really feel it, and sometimes, my heart still lingers with hesitation to fully let go of something I held onto for so unreasonably long... But I do not think it would be anything but toxic... if I got back with a person that judged a timeline in which I did not get hurt was not the best one. Alpha, though... To Alpha, no timeline mattered but the one in which I was saved. He was mad with worry and wrath and he and Tide did not rest until they saved me. Alpha... Alpha has a kill count of 3, and all three he killed were people that tortured and jailed me. You have seen how mellow Alpha's personality is, and even if sometimes disappointed in people, he is rarely truly angry... But for years afterwards, he was so wrathful and irritated whenever he thought about how he could not try to kill Thief because it was too risky. He... was truly a dashing rescuer, " Spirit smiled faintly, but he lowered his cup to the table because his hands were trembling too much. " Still, just because you ended one relationship does not mean you are immediately ready to jump into another, and... I was truly, really a mess, for a long time afterwards, and weak as a dying bird. If only Thief was dead, it would be one thing, but I constantly had to watch my every action and think about what I could do to not anger him, but still keep trying to make difference to better the world, in constant give and take relationship with the person that hurt me. It... would be as if Guliermo suddenly became the owner of the theatre, and even if he lost much interest in you, you had to be at his mercy and had to pay him a large amount of money to continue acting, and you were always tense, as there was never a moment you were free of the fear that he may gain interest in you and hurt you again... So I really was not ready for a serious relationship, as I was always struggling with Bull priests one way or the other, " he explained quietly. " But, I have been, uhm... hinting a bit here and there, to make sure that he understands I was no longer interested in waiting for the Lord of time, and that there is a vacancy if... he is interested in waiting. So, slowly, since that time, when we would spend time together, it was a little different, as there was no longer such thing looming over us, but I needed lot of time and space... and he could have stopped waiting if he wanted, you know, but he never did... "

[Mirach]

Senecio nodded thoughtfully. "Okay, that might be enough tea for now," he said, as he already had much to think about and didn't want to press Hans for more right then. "Would you like me to do your makeup now? I can bring it here or we could go upstairs to the masking room."

[VisAnastasis]

" Perhaps a masking room would be better...? Erdel can stay here and keep you company while we go do makeup... " Hans suggested to Janus, trying to sound neutral, but there was a touch of cunning feeling reflected in his voice, as, as Senecio could guess, he could not help but try to leave Erdel with Janus, to try to give them a bit of time to meet each other. He glanced at the old Being for permission sheepishly, and Janus grumbled, but still, despite he disliked being manipulated in general, he was in a too good a mood with the successful tea party. Besides, even if he was distrustful of Hans's everyday manipulations, Senecio could clearly feel he had a soft spot for his Spirit King.
" Well, you have spilt quite a bit of tea, so... I guess I can turn the blind eye to the obvious nudge once, because he is Senecio's friend, too," he finished wordless communication curtly, before turning to Erdel a bit, trying not to smile but keep a stern look. " Hmm, let's see... Have you ever set up wall shelves before? Since Senecio choose to take the key I offered him, there is a little positive reinforcement shelf I wanted to set up for him and the kids at this free part of the wall on the left. Will you help? "
" Ah... " Erdel blinked at the unexpected question, replying shyly. " I have set up some shelves before, though they were made by me, so I do not know if I am particularly good at it... They did turn out a little crooked at that time... "
" It's settled then, I'll teach this kid how to set a proper little shelf while you do the makeup, " Being turned to the actor then, to double check if he agrees. " Do you agree with Hans's vile proposition, of me stealing your little friend for a bit? We should be alone at a theatre, excluding Rain, who is on the roof doing some measurements for me, so you should be perfectly safe, though if anything happens, you can use the things I gave you. Being alone for a short bit of time sounds like the perfect chance to test your limits, but if it is too scary of a first test, even with Hans with you, you can either take your friend or just stay here to do makeup. It is always fine to bail, so, " he offered supportingly. "  Do as your heart tells you. "

[Mirach]

"Right..." Senecio murmured as only with Janus's words he realized this arrangement means being parted from Erdel in the theatre. "Masking room... masking room should be okay with Hans. Yes, I think it should be," he smiled faintly.

[VisAnastasis]

If theathre was not empty, and if Hans was not going with him, Erdel would probably protest, but he also seemed to judge this as a good test to see how Senecio would fare without him.
" Masking room is but a whisper away, " young demon stated, catching Senecio's look. His gaze seemed a touch more serious, and there was a calm confident feeling as he added with gentler tone." Do not forget, sweet little human friend of mine, that this world operates on a fairy tale logic, " he grinned but a little, with a shy playfulness, as if he tried to imitate reassuring mysterousness of ancient Beings around him as well as he could, as he explained himself. " If you are anxious, even if there is no danger to use items for...say my name, and I will leave what I am doing to come to you. Like everyone says, this is just a test and it is okay to bail. " he promised him, as it was clear vampire was willing to skip on opportunity to have time with Janus and even possibly leave a rude impression if Senecio needed him, clearly marking his priorities.

[Mirach]

"A whisper away, okay," Senecio smiled. "Thank you for the tea, it was a lovely party," he told Janus. Then he turned to Hans. "Let’s go."

[VisAnastasis]

Spirit nodded slightly, standing up. He followed the actor's steps up close, and he was humming some calm tune quietly as if trying to fill the overwhelming silence of the theatre with it. He knew Senecio can feel his feelings, and while he could not do anything for the most part to hide concern, it seemed he was doing his best to actively think a lot of supportive thoughts, since warmth and care coming from him, even though induced on purpose and not coming spontaneously, was very loud.

[Mirach]

Senecio walked quickly, trying to not pay much attention to the empty hallway and just focus on how he will do the makeup for Hans. Once they got to the masking room, he started right away, and with the familiar movements, he calmed soon. "Thanks," he murmured. "Feeling better now. How about you?"

[VisAnastasis]

At first, while Senecio was applying their makeup, Hans was more overwhelmed and shaken. Despite his best efforts, his thoughts must have been naturally wandering to the bleak reality that if the actor were not saved, he would have to do this on his own forevermore. He calmed more as time progressed, and despite all his dark thoughts he could not help but smile in the end when a clear face without scars greeted him in the mirror. A relieved, more confident feeling lingered behind that smile.
" You know, I always tell Tide that... with all we have been through in our long lives, it is a miracle how we are able to sit down and eat and laugh as if nothing happened. That you and I are able to do this again, too... is a miracle, " Spirit responded hoarsely, as he gazed into his reflection in the mirror before he looked back at the actor. " Do not worry for me... For I refuse to cry, " he shook his head defiantly, with the same stubbornness that seemed to have gotten him through losing everything many times before, as from their group, he was the only one that did not cry over the actor's death yet. " I am not the kind of person to not acknowledge my miracles, and someone as lucky as me should not cry. Despite all temporary anxieties, I think of myself as truly fortunate, so I hope you will believe my words over whatever your senses are telling you. "

[Mirach]

"That's good, don’t cry," Senecio smiled faintky. "Us makeup wearers meed to be mimdful of crying if we don't want to ruin it. On the other hand, it does make crying look more dramatic, so that doesn't need to always be a disadvantage..."